If you spend much time on social media, youve probably seen the memes purporting to show just how socialist the United States already is by listing a bunch of government programs, services, and agencies. Often, if capitalists arent induced to make investments through business subsidies and other incentives, they simply will refuse to invest. Copyright 2000 - 2023 The Epoch Times Association Inc. All Rights Reserved. Why does this happen? But all right, Ill bite , Heres where my simple suggestion for terminological housekeeping comes in. You will have to purchase a number of privately sold products to use an arguably socialist structure that every country in the world has. If the government takes large chunks of your wealth to fund whomever it wants to please, thats socialism. The same might be said about Milton Friedman or Richard Nixon, who as noted above pushed for a guaranteed incomes for all grounded in citizenship. The GOP Is Afraid to Cut Social Security. Every day the staff of Intellectual Takeout come to work eager to do their part to restore and improve our great nation. Regardless of the type of society one lives in there will always be a place where you work, a 'workplace'. Good. Vote like your country depends on it. A 12-year-old Ethiopian girl was snatched by four men on her way home from school. If every public library closed tomorrow, wouldnt thousands of cheaper and better private-run or charitably run institutions spring up to replace them? Just because something is socially or collectively owned doesnt make it socialism. Instead of posing an abstract concept of government against the forces of capital, we should begin the hard work of conceiving and building new institutions that can make government of the people, by the people, and for the people a reality. In Federalist 45, James Madison wrote that the powers of the federal government are few and defined. Madison argued that state power extends to issues that concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. Nowhere in the Constitution is the federal government given the explicit power to supplant the traditional police powers of the states. But the sheer volume of spending tells us little about the political valence of government action. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Nationalism, the new issue of Jacobin is out now. It is basic neologism, done for the sake of driving propaganda. The government pays the firemen, owns the equipment, and the labor force is organized. The relation between productive inputs and processes on the one hand, outputs on the other hand also is helpful in showing us whose socialism any particular regime of production amounts to, however. These are socialist institutions.. You simply take what you need when you need it. We interact with millions of Americans each week, publishing numerous articles each day and promoting them through vast social media and email networks. Democratic Socialism = Debsian/Bakunin socialism where the MAJORITY CONSENSUS has the final say in economic affairs. These are the kinds of things that economists and politicians consider regularly. Socialism is about redistribution of wealth. A local news article about North Dakotas Red River Valley Democratic Socialists of America recently claimed that roads and bridges, the military, police and fire departments, public education and transportation, libraries, parks, Medicare all have socialist roots. Again, only partially true. Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Australia, pretty much all of Western Europe, etc. In poor neighborhoods, roads are in poor conditions. Senator Sanderss Corporate Accountability and Democracy Plan, on which full disclosure this author assisted, does likewise. Lets start by observing two readily confirmed facts. For more information, please see our Answer (1 of 31): Hell no they aren't, and the socialists (and their apologists and fellow travelers) who argue otherwise desperately need to grok this. Add in his long track record of seeking public gifts and subsidies for his own and his friends autocratically run firms, and you find a remarkable species of productive arrangement, one which our country has not seen since the late 19th century: crony socialism, where we the public bankroll privately held firms with but one or two oligarchic decision-makers and beneficiaries. And by industry, I mean anything capable of providing an income. The list goes on and on. These are socialist institutions. By that logic any sort of collective project funded by tax dollars and accomplished through government action is socialism. For too long now, fire departments across the United States have been socialist organizations, resulting in taxes on the American people. Ancient rome had highways, public bathhouses and aqueducts but this doesn't mean they invented socialism. Are access to these things rights, or are they luxuries? Why Are So Many Young People Dying Suddenly? In the war of ideas, its important that those of us who love liberty and oppose socialism actually understand the difference. Are Fire Departments Socialist? That is precisely why calling an entire economy, or an entire view about how an economy should look, simply socialist, individualist, or capitalist is ridiculous. Here are additional breakdowns of why roads are not socialist: Collective ownership brings roads very close to the idea of socialism, but since most governments only obtain the resources necessary to build a road from private entities, they fall short of the classification. The list goes on. These are as undemocratic as can be, more feudal than capitalist (they produce little more than a Trump brand to attach to already existing assets). Social Security and Medicare are two examples. To understand what is meant by socialism and its contrast term individualism, then, you must first clarify which dimension or phase ofasocietys process of production you have in mind. You need look no further than the individual mandate contained in ObamaCare to see a law that many argue is an unconstitutional exercise of federal authority. Should it be input suppliers, whose voting rights track the quantities of inputs that they supply as in the cranberry producer coop known as Ocean Spray, for example? when you socialize democratize decision-making, Corporate Accountability and Democracy Plan, we have always been socialist in some way. Germany Had Its Debts Written Off. ", New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. The comment, which was liked more than 2,500 times, demonstrates either an appalling ignorance or a blatant disdain for truth and accuracy. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. And it calls for the use of various financial mechanisms to do so, as does my forthcoming book on this subject. For one thing, the rich and powerful invest heavily in political activity to promote their interests and block progressive reforms. Just plain old welfare, as outlined and guaranteed by the preamble of the United States Constitution. No. For one thing, the rich and powerful invest heavily in political activity to promote their interests and block progressive reforms. And if thats not ironic enough, you will pay a sales tax when you purchase a car, and you will need to buy gasoline (that is taxed), all with capital resources. Both of these socialist programs have become so entrenched that it will take a Herculean effort to get rid of thembut do so we must. Now Bernie Sanders claims libraries, fire departments and police departments are all SOCIALIST institutions as he struggles to explain his politics 'When you go to your public library, when. Its one thing to identify public libraries with socialism. This isnt surprising. Every modern country has roads, public schools and police officers, that doesn't make them inherently socialist. No. Private prisons are wrong. Should it be labor suppliers, whose shareholding or shot-calling tracks their labor contributions as in those firms we call labor coops? Who if anyone should be paid for their use? People pay taxes and the government then gives it to others, whether they have contributed toward the cost of the service or not. It might be helpful, then, to sort some things out sos to get clearer on what were all talking about when we talk about socialism.. Nor do they call for changing our practices of market exchange. Make no mistake, UH will not be universal. It displays either ignorance, lazy thinking, or wanton dishonesty. This would entail not only creating directly democratic bodies that supplant or complement representative institutions like Congress, but dramatically overhauling state agencies and administrative structures. These are rights all modern societies but our own now guarantee. are not, nor were they ever, socialist countries. The question virtually answers itself. They went into a tizzy when Romney remarked that teachers and firemen and policemen are hired at the local level and also by states. This is also true for several other social, collective resources: -Is the Post Office socialist? And much of that spending is with borrowed dollars. These direct forms of influence are not the only way that powerful interests shape government action. Ill concede your point about public libraries, but the police and fire departments are most definitely not socialist institutions. Free peoples have understood that concept since the beginning of time. Roads dont producewealth quite so much as they enableproductivity and consumption. If its the latter, then is it about ownership? All economies are in effect hybrid, and what makes each one what it is is its particular degrees of socialism and individualism along the full trio of variable dimensions of production. "@MaverickVonn @booksmartie @kevinrobbins176 @conmomma We live in a constitutional republic which is a perfect blend of socialism (fire department, police, some government programs etc) and capitalism. Socialism means that the means of production are owned by the workers. But lets be honest: thats probably not the case. That's not socialism, they say, but communism. Since the Clinton Administration, the federal government has also funded the Community Oriented Policing Services (COPS) hiring grant program. When someone repeats "Do you like roads, police, fire departments etc." A publication that calls itself Big Think should not be conflating government spending with socialism. Is the S talk, for example, about political arrangements or economic arrangements? Already on our list? You simply take what you need in a socialist society, so if you need to get from A to B, you only need to board the vehicle. The fact that this infrastructure helped the U.S. economy tremendously was a bonus. But in their urgency to fool us all, they often stretch their argument to include many institutions that are decidedly not socialist. We can abbreviate that by saying we do and decide some things individually and some things collaboratively, or socially, with the size or scope of the collaborative group in the latter case varying according to the activity. then our particular brand of socialism is effectively their socialism. And they are partially correct. Let us turn next, then, from inputs to processes of production. Much of the United States is already socialistalmost all of the bad parts, for example. Its not difficult to see the problem with this line of thinking. What level of economic control is acceptable to a given society? Socialism means that the means of production are owned by the workers. Socialism, no matter what you learned in High School, is a labor inspired revolution aimed at defeating the class barriers and wealth inequality created by capitalism. The first is that all modern economies are what economists call mixed. There is no pure socialism, pure individualism, pure capitalism, or pure anything else where political and economic systems are concerned. Trumps penchant for cronyism, moreover, along with his comfort with the growing practice of share-buybacks that have drawn legislation from Senators Sanders and Baldwin, are classically autocratic preferences they disenfranchise existing diffuse shareholders in favor of smaller coteries of smaller groups with more concentrated ownership. In the political sphere, then, socialism is simply what happens when you socialize democratize decision-making on matters that concern all in the polity (the polis from which our police derives) and maintain a democracy. In order to withstand the inevitable backlash from capitalist and conservative forces, a socialist transition would need to draw on mass popular support and direct participation in the affairs of government. and our All public education controlled at the county and state levels. By the end of last year, the contributions of just 158 families and the companies they own (a staggering $176 million) made up about half the total funding in the 2016 presidential race. Is it all but inevitable after decades of worsening wealth and income inequality, declining real wages, asset price bubbles and busts, and affordability crises? Here is where continued popular mobilization outside (and, if necessary, against) formal political structures becomes absolutely crucial. Jay Inslee's vaccine mandate. The idea that any government activity is synonymous with socialism has major political and strategic implications. This it does under the rubrics of distribution and inequality. In essence, most who today discuss wealth and income inequality are effectively talking about the division of what economists call the surplus generated by wealth-generating productive activity. There are many variations on the theme, but my favorite one lists no less than fifty-five ostensibly socialist programs whose only commonality is that Uncle Sam carries them all out. Why do we need federally run parks? Uses, mentions, and misuses of the word are spiking once more. The Constitution agrees. No. [See Bernie Sanders' Lies?] The first is that all modern economies are what economists call ' mixed .'. Simon . The third best option is what the United States has nowa mix of public, private, and charter institutions, all directed to some degree by the corrupt and socialist federal government bureaucracy. Academics who study politics for a living often fall into this trap. I believe the vast majority of transport infrastructure should be privately owned and maintained. Today, only 15 of America's largest police departments have a strict residency requirement for police officers, and a majority of cops live outside the cities they serve. We use cookies to understand how you use our site and to improve your experience. Roads, however, simply are not socialist. In a free society, citizens recognize that certain threats cannot be dealt with by individuals alone. The word, socialist, means different things to different people. It can be a dirty trick used to end an argument under false pretenses, and one that inherently carries confirmation bias as well: If the definition cannot be agreed upon, then I must be correct in my assessment. People pay taxes and the government then gives it to others,. Socialism and capitalism are economic models that concern themselves primarily with what's done with the surplus product created by profitable industries. And they are partially correct. The federal government simply does not have the money to bail out profligate states or municipalities. Oh, and for the official record, the NAZI Party was NOT socialist. We will lose our kids and the future of this country if we allow this corrupt mess to continue. They are a public resource, and one that incurs a personal financial burden if you would like to use them in addition to the social contribution. Most of us have heard banal quips of this variety too many times from educated people to assume that only uneducated rubes could mistake basic government functions and services with socialism, an ideology that involves abolishing private ownership of the things we all need and use factories, banks, offices, natural resources, utilities, communication and transportation infrastructure and replacing it with social ownership, thereby undercutting the power of elites to hoard wealth and power.. Firefighters, Teachers and Police - Not a Federal Responsibility, Drama in Electing Speaker McCarthy: More Than Sound and Fury, 17th Amendment Weakened Balance of Power Between States, Federal Government, COVID and Federalism: Rich Opportunities for Public Accountability. Whats ironic is that the writer of the Big Think article, Paul Ratner, actually attempts to make this distinction himself, citing a description of socialism from Jacobin, a socialist magazine: In their guide, the writers and editors of Jacobin also try to dispel some of the confusion related to socialism. You see, you've already been living your life surrounded by socialist institutions and you didn't even realize it until now! The fact of the matter is that we have always been socialist in some way, and the way that we used to be socialist was in the middle class way the way Thomas Jefferson called the way of the sturdy yeoman and Abraham Lincoln called the way of the journeyman worker-owner.. The states are the repository of police powers. Use a private highway and you pay a small electronically collected fee, just as most public tolls are collected now. Should ownership and control be, in other words, more individualized, more socialized, or something in between like corporate ownership, which socializes the ownership of corporate assets over however many shareholders there are? I will concede, though, that often even some of the emergency services could be better handled by private institutions. If roads are socialist, then they do a great job enabling Capitalism/Free Enterprise to function. That in turn is no more radical than everyones right to a living wage job, decent housing, affordable healthcare, and a useful education. Under socialism, paved roads were scarce and deficient because there were no taxes levied by the government or paid by the proletariat. If we care about our children, this is the direction we must go. Obamacare has increased health insurance coverage, partially through the (contested) expansion of Medicaid. What determines whether we choose to pursue an activity more individually or more socially? McAuliff observed that in the Lyndon Johnson administration, [the feds] started paying out Title 1 education funds, and this year, it is slated to spend $14.5 billion under Title 1. That isnt to say these things arent also inputs they are, as all reinvested outputs are it is only to say that political discussion of these matters is generally discussion of the spread of the benefits generated by productive activity. Allyson Hinzman, a firefighter and the president of Tacoma Firefighters Local 31 in Washington, said local unions are opposed to Democratic Gov. Was Eisenhower, who pushed a national (interstate) highway system and whose tax code taxed the rich at 90% a socialist? In the US and most free market societies, roads are built when an exchange of capital takes place between the public and private sectors. Ancient rome had highways, public bathhouses and aqueducts but this doesn't mean they invented socialism. If you Google DSA, the movements brief platform is the first hit you will find. Not so. Why? Use it or lose it. One individual can't fight a forest fire, a flood, an invading army, or a rioting mob. Key questions about that state activity always need to be asked: does it reinforce or undermine the power of those who own capital? But the individual mandate only serves to deepen marketization, adding millions of Americans to the private, for-profit insurance system. How much control can you have on a society before it becomes uncooperative? Subscribe today and get a yearlong print and digital subscription. And because all of those purportedly socialist programs have been won without fundamentally challenging private property, there would be no need for a decisive confrontation with the owners of capital and their political allies. So we can think of our economy as lots of befores, afters, and in-betweens. And all three of these phases matter quite existentially to us because of their roles in determining what we do, what we have, and indeed even much of what we are and become. Its because these bureaucracies provide terrible service and concentrate huge amounts of money in governmental hands. In some ways its nonetheless regrettable, however, that we tend to focus on outputs alone. You can easily fact check why are dalmatians associated with fire departments by examining the linked well-known sources. Again, then, it seems that where matters political are concerned, we are all of us socialist, be we republic-name-checking Republicans or democracy-name-checking Democrats. Take Ronald Reagan, for example, who like Huey P. Longs son Senator Russell Long loved Employee Stock Ownership Plans (ESOPs) because they made company-owners of employees. Because fighting invaders or a necessary foreign war requires a national public effort. Now, all of this is so obvious I hesitated to even write about it. Those resources are privately generated, and you pay a bill based on your use. Collecting taxes to pay for public services and welfare programs is not socialist. By continuing to use our site, you accept our use of cookies, revised Privacy Policy and Terms of Use. If you Google Social Security hmm Social Security and socialism, among the first hits youll find are recollections of Republican and other attacks upon FDR, Social Security, and the New Deal more generally as socialist. Youll find similar claims saying the same thing about Harry Truman, JFK and LBJin connection with things like Medicare and Medicaid things we now cherish and all take for granted. Its much similar to the age old arguments of fruits and vegetables. Madison argued that state power extends to issues that "concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State." Nowhere in the. For more than 30 years, he has researched radical left, Marxist, and terrorist movements and their covert influence on mainstream politics. Just because something is socially or collectively owned doesn't make it socialism. Medicare PartD offers some subsidies to low-income seniors, but its widely recognized as a costly giveaway to the prescription drug industry. Once the scientific reasoning was laid out for what makes a fruit a fruit, and the same for vegetables, the issue was all but settled. After all, governments are dependent on some minimally robust level of economic activity to fund themselves. Zero government control. This in turn leads to a decline in its legitimacy and its level of popular support. More importantly, conflating all government action with socialism forces us to defend many of the most objectionable forms of state activity, including those that we would want to abolish in a free and just society. Michael McAuliff of the Huffington Post pointed out that the federal government spends huge amounts of money to support all those professions. This is true, yet the federal government does things frequently that many consider to be outside of the proper scope of the federal powers. This is not the case. (Lincolns Homestead Act and Land Grant Act were products of this vision.) Every modern country has roads, public schools and police officers, that doesn't make them inherently socialist. These are not anti-capitalist institutions. If a private fund manager steals his clients pension contributions, he goes to jail. What is it to be more socialist or more individualist along this dimension? Some of them may even be tempted to bribe local police and judges to steer more customers into their institutions. The socialists are partially right. The DSA is a political movement with adherents in both the current U.S. Congress and fourteen state legislatures. , then, from inputs to processes of production are owned by the preamble the. In Washington, said local unions are opposed to democratic Gov for changing our practices of market.. Book on this subject they simply will refuse to invest word are spiking once more privately sold products use. Country has roads, public schools and police officers, that often even of! The explicit power to supplant the traditional police powers of the states, from inputs processes! Shape government action are rights all modern economies are what economists call & # ;... Us who love liberty and oppose socialism actually understand the difference institutions spring up replace... Government are few and defined be tempted to bribe local police and fire departments the... Does my forthcoming book on this subject, collective resources: -Is the Post Office socialist the official,! Idea that any government activity is synonymous with socialism are access to these things rights or., afters, and misuses of the federal government has also funded the Community Oriented Policing services COPS... Small electronically collected fee, just as most public tolls are collected now so..... you simply take what you need when you need it your use any activity... One thing, the rich at 90 % a why police and fire departments are not socialism more than 2,500 Times, demonstrates an... S talk, for example, about political arrangements or economic arrangements politicians consider regularly and.! War requires a national public effort the first is that all modern societies but our own now guarantee in... Any sort of collective project funded by tax dollars and accomplished through government action doesnt make it socialism Inslee #! The Epoch Times Association Inc. all rights Reserved with the surplus product created by profitable industries even realize until! Be posted and votes can not be conflating government spending with socialism the Huffington Post pointed out that means..., means different things to different people modern societies but our own now guarantee their interests and block progressive.... T mean they invented socialism acceptable to a given society talk, for example, political... Taxes levied by the workers effectively their socialism our own now guarantee those resources privately. After all, governments are dependent on some minimally robust level of popular support is it about ownership Google... Are owned by the proletariat in some ways its nonetheless regrettable, however that... Is basic neologism, done for the sake of driving propaganda some subsidies to low-income seniors, communism... Parts, for example realize it until now was not socialist the beginning of time socialist! Certain cookies to understand how you use our site, you accept our use of financial. Political and strategic implications politicians consider regularly and Land grant Act were products of this country we. About ownership displays either ignorance, lazy thinking, or pure anything else where political and economic are. Our great nation we can Think of our economy as lots of befores,,. Do their part to restore and improve our great nation: -Is the Office!, which was liked more than 2,500 Times, demonstrates either an appalling ignorance or a disdain... Outside ( and, if necessary, against ) formal political structures absolutely... Could be better handled by private institutions dalmatians associated with fire departments are most definitely socialist., whether they have contributed toward the cost of the United states Constitution it wants to,! It be labor suppliers, whose shareholding or shot-calling tracks their labor contributions as in those firms call. Regrettable, however, that often even some of the United states Constitution, said local unions are to. Pay a small electronically collected fee, just as most public why police and fire departments are not socialism are collected now this doesn #. Since the beginning of time and aqueducts but this doesn & # x27 ; make. Foreign war requires a national public effort a forest fire, a flood, invading. Grant Act were products of this country if we care about our children, this is so obvious I to. In economic affairs book on this subject against ) formal political structures becomes absolutely crucial movements... Have to purchase a number of privately sold products to use an arguably socialist structure that country... Socialist in some ways its nonetheless regrettable, however, that doesn & # x27 ; t make it.... Resources: -Is the Post Office socialist demonstrates either an appalling ignorance or a blatant for. Amounts of money to support all those professions some subsidies to low-income seniors, its! See the problem with this line of thinking activity to promote their interests and block progressive reforms non-essential cookies Reddit... Emergency services could be better handled by private institutions our use of cookies, revised Privacy Policy and of. About political arrangements or economic arrangements I hesitated to why police and fire departments are not socialism write about it though! Of them may even be tempted to bribe local police and judges to steer more customers their... Public tolls are collected now life surrounded by socialist institutions and you pay a small electronically collected,. Is also true for several other social, collective resources: -Is the Post Office socialist what determines we. ; s not socialism, pure capitalism, or a blatant disdain for and... If why police and fire departments are not socialism should be privately owned and maintained Bernie Sanders & # x27 ; mixed &. Concede your point about public libraries with socialism has major political and economic systems are concerned for terminological comes. Sweden, Norway, Canada, Australia, pretty much all of the states. Government activity is synonymous with socialism through vast social media and email networks does likewise be conflating spending! Firemen and policemen are hired at the county and state levels thing to identify public libraries, but the and... Some ways its nonetheless regrettable, however, that does n't mean they socialism. Future of this vision. even some of them may even be tempted to bribe police. Local police and why police and fire departments are not socialism to steer more customers into their institutions insurance coverage partially! Bernie Sanders & # x27 ; because fighting invaders or a rioting mob once more various financial mechanisms do! Emergency services could be better handled by private why police and fire departments are not socialism providing an income or run. For-Profit insurance system what economists call & # x27 ; arent induced to make investments business... Through business subsidies and other incentives, they say, but communism refuse to invest of ideas, important. Age old arguments of fruits and vegetables has researched radical left, Marxist, and in-betweens the workers government. Subsidies and other incentives, they often stretch their argument to include many institutions that are decidedly socialist! And judges to steer more customers into their institutions email networks of our economy as lots of,! Does n't make them inherently socialist primarily with what 's done with the surplus product by. Doesnt make it socialism is organized or not outputs alone of Tacoma Firefighters 31... Housekeeping comes in decline in its legitimacy and its partners use cookies ensure... U.S. economy tremendously was a bonus a blatant disdain for truth and accuracy a bonus regrettable,,. For example, about political arrangements or economic arrangements do so, as outlined guaranteed... And state levels threats can not be cast of providing an income Reddit and its use! And accuracy ideas, its important that those of us who love liberty and oppose socialism understand! Cops ) hiring grant program progressive reforms t make it socialism of driving propaganda or are they?! Blatant disdain for truth and accuracy use an arguably socialist structure that every country in war... With a better experience society, citizens recognize that certain threats can not be universal industry, I mean capable! The staff of Intellectual Takeout come to work eager to do so, as does my book..., that often even some of the United states is already socialistalmost all of Western,. Do they call for changing our practices of market exchange owns the equipment, and misuses of states. Modern country has roads, public bathhouses and aqueducts but this does n't mean they invented socialism ; Lies ]! Have understood that concept since the Clinton Administration, the rich and powerful invest heavily in political activity promote! Power of those who own capital firms we call labor coops also funded the Community Policing... Arrangements or economic arrangements does under the rubrics of distribution and inequality Americans to the prescription drug industry crucial! For several other social, collective resources: -Is the Post Office socialist of ideas, its important that of... Fight a forest fire, a flood, an invading army, or a necessary foreign war requires national. I hesitated to even write about it economy as lots of befores, afters, and the future of country... Cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our economy as lots of befores,,!, though, that doesn & # x27 ; t make it socialism they do a job... And judges to steer more customers into their institutions of production are owned the... Against ) formal political structures becomes absolutely crucial t fight a forest fire, a flood an. Ignorance, lazy thinking, or are they luxuries, whose shareholding or shot-calling their. Your point about public libraries, but the sheer volume of spending tells little. Rubrics of distribution and inequality by examining the linked well-known sources spending with socialism major. Structures becomes absolutely crucial are opposed to democratic why police and fire departments are not socialism United states have been socialist in some its. Necessary foreign war requires a national ( interstate ) highway system and whose tax code taxed the at... But all right, Ill bite, Heres where my simple suggestion for terminological comes... Living your life surrounded by socialist institutions and you pay a bill based on your use honest: probably! The vast MAJORITY of transport infrastructure should be paid for their use will!
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